MURIEL WILKINS: I am Muriel Wilkins, and this is Coaching Real Leaders part of the HBR podcast network. I’m a long-time executive coach who works with highly successful leaders who’ve hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump by clarifying their goals and figuring out a way to reach them so that hopefully they can lead with a little more ease. I typically work with clients over the course of several months, but on this show we have a one-time coaching meeting focusing on a specific leadership challenge they’re facing. Today’s guest is someone we’ll call Denise to protect her confidentiality. She spent much of her career in project-oriented roles and a few years ago made the move to an organization where she’s increasingly gaining more leadership responsibility.
DENISE: In the past year, I’ve had a lot of growth opportunities. I came in as an individual contributor, but especially in the past year, I’ve been given more leadership responsibilities and management and being able to showcase the work that we do to our executive teams, our board, our stakeholders. I’m still an individual contributor on the org chart, but unofficially I’ve been given more management, the kind of visionary leadership responsibilities, and the communication being that face and that creator to guide the direction of my team and gotten really great feedback from that.
MURIEL WILKINS: Denise feels like she’s on the way up the ladder, but there’s a bit of a catch: the culture of her organization.
DENISE: I’ve come to see and be outright told that to be seen as a leader here, you need to be personally close to top leadership, preferably with decades of personal relationships with them, which I do not have. This history of hiring and promoting friends based on personal relationships has evolved somewhat, but it’s still how do I thrive as an outsider in a more insular insider environment where relationships are often valued higher than experience or technical skill sets?
MURIEL WILKINS: So much about career advancement is not just about being able to do the job, but also building the right relationships—a ceiling that Denise is bumping right up against. So, to start the coaching session, we zeroed in on what she means by thrive. How is she defining growth in her career as it stands today?
DENISE: I think to be recognized for leadership responsibilities and work that I do, I think in an environment where leaders are often chosen years and years in advance to come in and to be doing the work often feels like it’s an uphill battle of, I’m an outsider and an insider environment. I do question, am I reading too much into this or just being more aware of the senses of equity and belonging? Am I not being seen as a leader because I’ve only been here for a short time compared to those around me? I’m trying to figure out how I can be seen more as a leader for the work that I’m putting in and showing up to do.
MURIEL WILKINS: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I hear two questions there. One is why am I not being seen as a leader? And then the second question being, how do I get seen as a leader?
DENISE: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: Well, let me ask you, what do you think the commonality is between those two questions?
DENISE: I think maybe the sense that I’m like, “Oh, I’m not being seen as a leader,” and starting from there and how can I work on that? How can I build on that skill set?
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. So there’s a assumption that I’m picking up that you’re not seen as a leader. The only way those two questions are valid is if indeed you’re not seen as a leader. And so, I would like to understand where is that assumption coming from? What evidence do you have of that assumption?
DENISE: Hearing it conversationally that another person was chosen as the next leader, let’s say, of a team that I’m working with or my team years ago, even before I got there. So hearing the comments like that and just seeing how people grow and move in the company. I am making assumptions, but it does seem that I’ve seen some of the inequities of how people are given opportunities in the company, and it seems like a lot of it is based on some personal relationships.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. And by no way am I by raising this assumption saying it doesn’t mean it’s not true. I’m just saying let’s make sure the assumption is right because it’s what we’re operating on. It’s just like if I put in the wrong assumption into a budget model, I’m going to get very different results than if I put in a different assumption. So you are basing it on what you’ve seen in terms of who has been chosen for particular roles. Is that right?
DENISE: That’s a part of it. Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: That’s a part of it. So tell me what the other parts of it are.
DENISE: I think it’s what started as a smaller organization over the past several decades has seen growth and has matured to a part where some of the founding members are retiring or moving on to other things. I think where I’m at is in this organization that’s at this transitional moment of hiring more people and bringing in more folks like myself that are maybe more outsider. I say in quotes. But I think it’s at this moment of not just being such an insular organization. So I feel fortunate and committed and really passionate about the team that I’m on and the organization that I’m in and the role that I’m in. I really want to work on coming in from a technical contributor and how can I build on some of the communication and some of the other skill sets to round out that leadership potential to hopefully be seen as that. But when do you be patient with those kind of things and when do you put yourself out there a little bit more? Or you said what does growth and thriving mean? I think it’s just kind of being valued and seen and recognized for the kind of leadership work that I’m doing, but not formally recognized for at the moment.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. So help me understand because I do think it’s important that we have a measure of success here. So, if a year from now I were to talk to you and I say, “Hey, do you feel recognized now?” And your answer was an enthusiastic, “Yes, I do.” What would need to be true for that to be true?
DENISE: Maybe moving into more of an official or changing the description of my role or the scope of responsibilities to accurate reflect some of the additional opportunities and leadership responsibilities that I’ve been doing.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. So for your role, the scope of the role to reflect what you’ve been doing. I just want you to put it all out there. You’re just talking to me. I have no bearing on all this. Is it also title? Is it compensation? Is it a promotion or is it really just look, I just want the scope of the role to match what I’m doing? It’s like my kids put together their holiday list. I tell them be specific or else I’m just going to go with what I think is right. So I want you to be specific. What would be your wish list here?
DENISE: Definitely I think it’s important that title and compensation matches the scope of the job so that you feel valued for the level of work that you’re putting in. So I think that’s a part of it, but it’s really, I think about the role and being recognized on my team. I think I’m already being recognized with executive leadership and being able to seen as a leader in my department, but I think just a more formal recognition of that. So job description. title is less important to me, but.
MURIEL WILKINS: I want to go back a little bit to what you shared before, which is the question is how can I be seen as a leader? But then when I asked you for evidence, you talked about who’s been chosen. And so is the question, is it about you being seen or is it about you being chosen because those are two different things?
DENISE: That’s a good point. And sometimes I feel like seeing when years in advance people have been chosen, I feel like, well, I should have gotten in line 20 years ago. It just highlights what I can be seen as a weakness that I’m fairly new in an organization that really values tenure and longevity. That that seems like something that’s not something I can automatically build on. I can’t go back in time and be here 20 years ago. So from this moment going forward, what can I do? I guess to be seen I think more. Certainly I want to be able to showcase the work that my team does and steer that vision and I feel like I’m showing up for that work and leading on those responsibilities. And so just to be able to be seen for that work.
MURIEL WILKINS: What has led you to be invited at the table, to take on the increased responsibilities, to interface with the board to get on the balcony as you stated before? What has led to being invited to do that if you had not been seen?
DENISE: I’m not sure. I show up and dig into the work using technical skills and building trust with my team, and I think having some of that vision of being able to take company direction and priorities and goals and be able to filter it down to lead the team with, okay, what are our pathways? What are our processes? What are our plans to map out our team wide goals? And then be able to communicate that upward and outward of being a face and that voice of the team. I think because I’m able to speak to some of the more technical side of as we’re embracing more systems that I think originally it was like, well, I can speak to the system so I can be that voice of advocating and showing the future vision of how we’re going to use them.
And then I think that translated into, I got really good feedback of like, “Oh wow, you’re really good at communicating and putting together a vision and a deck and collaborating with everyone and on the team and workshopping of those presentation skills.” And that’s something that I’ve wanted to work on too of knowing that of leaders and managers that I’ve respected in the past, really great communicators. So I took that opportunity to work on maybe a part of my working experience that I hadn’t had as much experience in. And I think that just snowballed into being able to communicate that vision that’s spread to other responsibilities within the team and being able to communicate that outward as well.
MURIEL WILKINS: And so how did that happen without you being seen though? It’s like if I said they didn’t see me, so they didn’t invite me to the dinner party, and yet I’m here at the dinner party and I did get the invitation. How was I not seen?
DENISE: I think I just showed up to the dinner party.
MURIEL WILKINS: So you invited yourself to do all those things? Nobody asked you to do them?
DENISE: No. I think I put myself forward of this is something that I’d love to take a stab at or this is something from a professional development that I want to work on, and I’d love to be able to do that and let in the door that way.
MURIEL WILKINS: Got it. And then once you were in the door, nobody kicked you out.
DENISE: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. Got it. Listen, Denise, I think you’re being seen. Now, are you being seen in the way that you would like, which is with the formalization of it, or are you being chosen to fit the category that you’d like to be in, which is maybe it’s a more formalized role? That’s a different … But in terms of the value that you’re bringing to these different situations, whether it’s the board or the leadership conversations, you made the ask to be a part of it, somebody said yes. In order for them to say yes, they have to see you. I can’t invite anybody inside my house or I can’t tell somebody to come inside my house if I don’t see them. You’ve ever had that experience? Well, maybe it doesn’t happen that much these days. But people knock on the door and then run away and you’re like, “I don’t see them. I don’t see them. Where are they?” That’s not what’s happening here. You knocked, I opened the door and I see you and I tell you, come in. Okay. So you are seen. I think the question is more about why is that not translating into some formalization … If that’s even a word. Of the value that you bring.
DENISE: Maybe I have to be patient with that.
MURIEL WILKINS: I don’t know. We haven’t explored that yet.
DENISE: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: But I think it’s important to make the distinction because not being seen is really nobody is seeing the value that I bring. Then it’s like, okay, is that value being translated into something tangible? They’re tied together, but they’re two different steps. Before we move on, I want to ask, how much do you see yourself as the leader that you want other people to see you as?
DENISE: I think I’ve tried to be realistic of coming into a more insular environment of okay, that there’s a lot of institutional knowledge here, which is great. And sought out mentors to really learn from that and understand maybe the context. I’ve seen come in past roles in other organizations that I’ve been in that come in hot and want to change everything from the outside. And I think I’ve come in maybe more realistic of understanding okay, this is a more insular organization, sometimes resistant to change. How can I understand the history and the context by seeking out mentors that have more tenure there to build on my knowledge base if I am given that or earn that or get to a place of more leadership responsibilities that I’m not coming in hot to make broad sweeping changes as a newcomer to be disruptive. So I think I’ve tried to be more observant in the time that I’ve been here and learn and try to speak to what I can based on technical background and my outside experience and how I can add value to that. And I think maybe change comes more slowly in the working environment that I’m in.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. Understood. And I appreciate the fact that you said, look, you don’t have as long as a tenure as some of these other individuals who’ve been there and we can’t change that. There’s nothing that is within our control where we could accelerate the time and then make everybody else stop. We’re not in a vortex. This isn’t wrinkle in time where I could make everyone else slow down and you speed up and all of a sudden you guys have the same tenure. Not happening. And there’s a reframing for me around what would make you feel like you were an insider in spite of not having as long a tenure as everyone else.
DENISE: I think it’s just this sense of this uphill battle. I can only listen to others’ experiences of what happened decades ago and take that in and learn from that and try to incorporate that context into what I am speaking to. So I don’t know what would make me feel like an insider. Is that just something that builds with years of tenure? I’m not sure. I certainly feel like an outsider and have definitely been referred to as such.
MURIEL WILKINS: In what ways have you been referred to as such?
DENISE: Just being an unfamiliar face to the working environment. It sometimes feels like a pretty tight-knit local community here in the workplace. And having people with tenure at an organization, there’s a lot to learn from that. But sometimes it can feel alienating to someone coming in from the outside not being extended that sense of belonging, that invitation in that type of way.
MURIEL WILKINS: At the start of any coaching conversation, it’s important to level set. Someone might come in with a clearly articulated problem, but I need to dig a bit deeper and understand their line of reasoning before we can really figure out what challenge to tackle and how. In DENISE’s case, she wanted to be seen as a leader at her organization but believed that she wasn’t being seen because of the company’s culture around long tenure and relationship building. Now, reality of the work culture aside, I wanted to get a better sense of the assumptions DENISE was making. Was she really not being seen and what evidence did she have? Not because I didn’t believe her. It actually doesn’t matter what I believe when I coach someone. But more for her to get clear on what her pain point is. Once we were able to parse through whether or not she was being seen as a leader, we could then circle back to the questions around belonging. It’s time to break that problem down a bit. How much is in your control around cultivating a sense of belonging at this organization?
DENISE: I think I’ve made peace that of course I can’t be here in the past and all I can really control is the work that I show up to do and that consistency of showing up and digging into the work and using my skills and building trust with my team to be able to help guide us where we’re going in the future. That I can learn from the past and respect and honor that, but really try to keep the focus on going forward.
MURIEL WILKINS: And what is your measure of belonging? What is it based on or feeling like you’re on the inside? What is that based on?
DENISE: I don’t know. Maybe there’s some of my own bias coming into that, but I think just looking to your left, looking to your right and seeing a much different picture of people who have been there for a really long time compared to someone coming in newer in the grand scheme of things. I think I just try to focus on the work.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. So you focus on the work. Okay. And I understand what your strategy has been. I’m just trying to get a sense of what drives the sense of belonging for you. Because what I’m hearing from you is you look to the left, you look to the right and you see differences in terms of … Let’s just name one, tenure. And based on those differences, it makes you feel what?
DENISE: Maybe still on the outside.
MURIEL WILKINS: But are you technically on the outside?
DENISE: Well, I work there and I show up.
MURIEL WILKINS: Exactly.
DENISE: Yeah. Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: So I want to separate out the reality of the situation, which is you are on the inside. You are gainfully employed. As far as we know right now you’re employed, you are going to meetings, sounds like you’re doing a good job. You’ve been there a couple of years. So you are on the inside of the company, but the feeling you have, how you’re experiencing it is as being on the outside. But the reality of it is you are inside and you do belong because you’re there. You got that job.
DENISE: And I feel a great deal of job security too. I don’t think I’m going anywhere, and I’ve been told that too, of the value that I bring and that I’m a key part of the team and the future.
MURIEL WILKINS: I’m curious around your internal measure of feeling like you belong. Because what I’ve heard you say up until now is I don’t feel like I belong because of how others are behaving. I don’t even know if they’re behaving a particular way. Are they? That’s why I was saying has some particular things happened? Are they behaving in a particular way that puts you on the outside or that make you feel like you’re being left out?
DENISE: No. Not necessarily. I think just seeing how insular … As you five years in or whatever, see more deeper into the organization and seeing how insular it is. It sometimes feels tough to break into that.
MURIEL WILKINS:
And if you were to break into that, what would that do for you?
DENISE: I don’t know. I think I’m just trying to as I grow and develop in my career and as a leader, really committed to being able to the organization and the mission and the work and really is very fulfilling professionally and want to want to stay here. So really want to work on what I can work on to thrive here.
MURIEL WILKINS: I understand. And I don’t want to lose sight. I’m not dismissing what you’re saying. I just think that we have to be careful of the words that you’re using to describe your experience. And I don’t want you to lose sight of the fact that you are there. I also don’t want to absolve that it is an insular culture, it sounds like. So my question is the goal of breaking into an insular culture or what feels insular, is that goal the one that is going to get you to what you want?
DENISE: I’m not sure. I think coming from a more technical background, I think I used to believe that the work should speak for itself .that you focus on that and that will elevate you and people will just automatically see that. And I think as I’ve developed in my career, I’ve learned that you need to be able to build that net of trust and relationships and communication because if you’re showing up and doing the work, but nobody sees it, does it exist? Is it valued and all that. So I think I’ve really worked to develop on being able to communicate outward and showcase and advocate for things and being able to speak to executive levels to advocate for why our work is important and the priorities and the needs and the goals beyond that. So the internal marketing of the work. I think I’m working on that. And I think I’m just at a point where it’s like, okay, on the personal relationship side, what are some techniques that I can work and build on that to help being seen as a leader because I can’t magically come up with decades of relationship building of where I’m coming in right now? How do you crack that code, I guess?
MURIEL WILKINS: How do you crack that code? So here’s the thing, I hear you around, you’ve understood that the work doesn’t always speak for itself. That you have to go out and communicate it and advocate for it. What also doesn’t speak for itself is wishing and hoping that someone will make the translation that, oh my gosh, this person is doing more in their job or scope and therefore we should formalize it. Now, every now and then we have … I just saw the movie Wicked, so I’m obsessed. We’ll have somebody, some fairy godparent who comes and says, “Oh my goodness, yes. I recognize it, I see it, and we are now going to formalize this thing.” But it doesn’t always happen. And in your case, that seems to be the case. So if that doesn’t happen, what can you do to try to make that happen?
DENISE: Yeah. How can I be a better advocate for myself or how can I help make that happen?
MURIEL WILKINS: So what have you tried?
DENISE: I think I’ve tried in different review and check-in spaces to highlight the work that I’m doing and get feedback on that. Given some of these higher level or leadership projects or responsibilities. And talk about that growth trajectory of what could this turn into the future, how could this lead to a role that spells out some of these responsibilities? So I’ve definitely had those conversations with my manager. I think we’re just in a holding period in the department of making big moves. There’s a be patient type of response.
MURIEL WILKINS: So you’ve made the specific ask for in the way that you shared with me earlier. I want more formal recognition of everything I’m doing, and here’s what it would look like, either a title or a promotion or compensation or scope of responsibilities. You’ve made that specific and ask and you’ve been told be patient. That’s what’s happened?
DENISE: Yeah. I think I’ve tried to put it out there. Definitely had a conversation of this is the work that I’m doing, I want to be recognized for it and I think there’s going to be some more opportunity or I’ve been told there’s been some more opportunity in the future and to be patient and hold tight. And so I’m just wondering if there’s anything I can work on in the meantime, whatever is coming down the pike in the future that might be more in line with what I am hoping for and looking for.
MURIEL WILKINS: Mm-hmm. And what are you being patient for? Meaning what’s supposed to be happening in the meantime that is creating the need to be patient?
DENISE: I’m not sure. I think things in the organization, it’s not a time to upset the apple cart in terms of organization. That it’s not a reorg opportunity right now. So I’m going to see in the next year if there’s maybe some more opportunity for that.
MURIEL WILKINS: Mm-hmm. Okay. And if you knew the reasons why you need to be patient from an organizational context or from any other context, what would that do for you?
DENISE: I think that might help clarify what is going on the organizational level and how that relates and trickles down to where I’m at and where the team is at. Like I said, I think it’s at this transitional moment organization wide that folks with a lot of tenure are looking towards their next steps, transition in the company. So that’s why I think there’s more … I’ve been told there’s more opportunity in the future. Not super vague. Nothing is promised. But I think there’s more opportunity there. I think I’m just trying to build on my skill sets and the work that I’m doing and how I’m approaching the work and how I am approaching some of these stretch responsibilities that I’m taking on. I feel really good about that and I really like doing that work. How can I make myself the best contributor, manager, leader, potential candidate for something more?
MURIEL WILKINS: And I understand Denise, and I’m not ignoring your question at all. The reason why I’m asking you this is because I think we need to understand if that’s the right question. If the reason you’re not getting the role right now is because there are some things going on organizationally that are completely out of your control or your manager’s control and we have to wait for that wave to pass, is there anything that you could actually do better that could accelerate that? Probably not. And I don’t know .but I want to make sure that you’re focused on the right thing. Now if the other situation is look, even if those opportunities were available, you would not be a candidate because of XYZ, then the answer is, okay, here are the two or three skills that you need to improve on. My concern is that you’re interpreting what is a organizational issue as something that you need to do something about. How does that land with you?
DENISE: Yeah. There are contacts and forces beyond your control in an organization that, yeah, it’s definitely trying to interpret what is going on on an organization level and then filtering down on a team level and whatnot that all blends together and trying to sort that out.
MURIEL WILKINS: So there’s an opportunity for potential clarification that may be helpful to you. And that clarification is the question that I asked you. I understand I need to be patient. Manager, get it. I’ll be patient. What exactly am I being patient for? What needs to happen on the outside? So I think getting that clarification to separate what is happening organizationally with what is happening with you and what’s within your control is important. But let’s assume that there are things that you could do. With your manager have you asked that manager the very question you’re asking me, which is, what are some of the things that I could be working on to make me a viable candidate when those opportunities come up?
DENISE: I haven’t asked that outright like that, so maybe I should.
MURIEL WILKINS: What would stop you from doing so?
DENISE: Maybe just fear.
MURIEL WILKINS: Fear of what?
DENISE: Fear of being told that you’re not a viable candidate for more opportunities in the future.
MURIEL WILKINS: And if that were to happen, what would you do with that?
DENISE: I don’t know. I think I would ask for some more feedback. Really take a look at what might be holding me back.
MURIEL WILKINS: And look, I can understand. A lot of times we don’t ask the question because we’re concerned about what the answer could be. But without the answer, without an understanding, then it’s very hard to navigate how we move forward. And we make up our own assumptions, which leads us back to the beginning of our conversation. So you have a choice. We can play a guessing game around what are the things that you could do or you can try to get more concrete information and feedback and then you have a choice .but at least you’re doing it with eyes wide open.
DENISE: Yeah. Okay.
MURIEL WILKINS: How does that feel to you?
DENISE: Scary. But having some more direction and clarity is better than the assumptions of what’s in the dark. So that’s something that I can work with more.
MURIEL WILKINS:
Yeah. And so I’d love to hear from you, what are areas where you’d like to have some more direction and clarity that would make you feel like you know how to hold this time that you’re in when you’re being asked to be patient?
DENISE: I don’t know, to be honest. Where do I fit into the team a couple of years down the line? Where do you see my growth trajectory going? That pathway of what does my future look like here. And I think it’s tough that I talked about this transitional moment company-wide of a lot of folks with tenure there moving on to next chapters in their lives. So I’m not sure if anyone really knows what a couple of years down the road will look like company-wide and team wide. I think there’s some old pathways and ways of doing things that’s very familiar company-wide for folks that have been there for a long time that may be harder to articulate moments of change and what that vision for the future looks like.
MURIEL WILKINS: And do you think that with everything that’s going on in the ecosystem, meaning there’s some resistance to change because things have been ingrained, there’s a culture that precedes you that’s been there a long time. To what extent do you feel like what you’re facing is specifically due to the way that you are leading or positioning yourself? Or do you think anyone who is new in that organization would be experiencing the same thing?
DENISE: I think anyone who is new in the organization would be experiencing some of that to some extent. And I think I’ve witnessed other people come in hot and met with a lot of resistance to change or outside experience. So I think I’m trying to tread very carefully and build trust and work on the collaboration side of things. That when I do present moments of change or different way of doing things, that I have the support of my team and cross-functionally too.
MURIEL WILKINS: Denise, what I’m not hearing in anything that you’re saying—and please correct me if I’ve missed it… is I’m not hearing any evidence that what you’re doing is off-putting, being rejected, not valued. And so there’s a question from me around is it really a matter of you doing things differently than what you’ve been doing or there’s a level of patience that needs to happen exactly what your manager said because it’s keep doing what you’re doing, but it’s going to take longer than you probably would like?
DENISE: That’s a fair point. I think coming in, I did rely heavily on outside experience, technical skills, and I think I did ruffle some feathers at the beginning and have course corrected and learned from that and tried to develop some more on the relationship side and the collaboration side and trust and all that. So I’ve definitely tried to develop and learn and invest in myself. And when being invited inside to some of the more leadership opportunities, being able to learn from that. So I think you’re probably right. It just takes time and building more.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. It might. I don’t know, which is an expectation setting, and then you have a question you have to ask yourself: do I want to be that patient? Which is why I think getting some clarity around what it would take is important. I think the other thing I haven’t necessarily heard, but again tell me if I either missed it or it’s there but we haven’t talked about it, is to what extent have you gotten some data points and some feedback as to whether what you’re doing is working or not to create those connections and those relationships? Not to make them the same as what the tenured people have, but just to create connections and relationships and start building that fabric. To what extent have you gotten any feedback on that?
DENISE: I have received some good feedback in the past six months maybe of some real growth and evolution in how to manage and lead more successfully because of investing in those kind of pathways of communication and trust building. I think it’s something definitely that I’ve intentionally sought out to work on knowing that that’s not necessarily a weakness, but just something that I have less development experience in. And so I have received some good feedback around that.
MURIEL WILKINS: It’s a really good sign that the Denise has gotten positive feedback around the work she’s doing in building relationships at her company. A place where relationships seem to be really important. Articulating this also helps differentiate the feeling she’s having of being an outsider from the reality. In a lot of leadership situations where we feel stuck, it’s easy to experience what we’re facing as difficult or even impossible. But without asking directly, we might not really ever know what’s truly going on. So in coaching, I like to have leaders help themselves understand why they might fear speaking up or asking, and then imagine what might happen in that scenario. Often it can help us see more options and become more comfortable with doing the uncomfortable. DENISE is most likely doing what she needs to do in terms of the work and in terms of relationship building, whether that’s enough, she can only know by having more conversations with decision makers. Since that’s hopefully something she can do and do soon we’ll jump back in now by walking through what those conversations could look like. So if you were to have that conversation, what’s the question that you could ask in a way that makes you comfortable but also makes you feel like you would be able to get a response?
DENISE: Yeah. I think I’m hesitant around putting myself out there so directly like that of this is what I want, what would it take for me to get there?
MURIEL WILKINS: Well, what’s the alternative?
DENISE: I don’t know. Doing the work and letting it show for itself.
MURIEL WILKINS: That is a choice. But it’s a choice that you told me you learned a while back, didn’t quite work.
DENISE: It’s not enough. It’s like you need that foundation of the work.
MURIEL WILKINS: Right. I think what we’re getting at is do the work, let the work speak, but you also have to speak for yourself and that a part of that is being able to articulate what it is that you want and be ready for whatever answer you’re going to get. Because without that answer, you don’t know what your next move needs to be. I’m not in a position to be able to tell you what to work on. So the question is right, but you’ve got to be able to address it with the people who would actually be able to give you an answer. What would make you feel more courageous in being able to ask that question?
DENISE: I think I’ve shied away from the conversations like that that could be interpreted as overt political positioning. Trying to angle your way to a higher position. Maybe just building the courage. I don’t know.
MURIEL WILKINS: In what way could you have that conversation in a way that didn’t make it feel like you were angling politically to get to a higher position?
DENISE: I think I have a really great relationship with my manager and a lot of trust is there and open communication. I would feel comfortable having these types of conversations. Yeah. I’m not sure what’s holding me back from the courage to be more forthright of this is where I would want to go. How can I get there?
MURIEL WILKINS: What are you concerned would happen if you did do that?
DENISE: I don’t know. Maybe there’s more hurdles and things to work on than I realized. Or maybe there’s a path that has fewer opportunities for growth that I’m hoping for.
MURIEL WILKINS: Maybe there is and maybe there’s not. We don’t know. And really, I am agnostic. I just want you to have choices. The choices is you can operate in not knowing and hoping that what you’re doing is going to make the mark. It’s like shooting darts in the dark and hoping it hits the target. And the other choice is put it out there, bring some light to it and see if you get a response so that then you actually know what the target is. The target will either be, I’m either on the right path or I’m not on the right path, so now I know what I need to do to course correct, or it’s still unclear what the path is, which would bring you right back to where you are right now. But at least you’ll know there’s a reason you are where you are now. Does the fear need to not exist for you to be able to have the conversation?
DENISE: No. But I think that the clarity of having the conversation to bring air to it, I think is a good thing of what is the path forward? I think feedback is so important as a learning opportunity, so being able to be open and forthright about the path that I’m on. And given over the past years, some of the bigger projects that I’ve been able to take lead on, how can we continue that in the future?
MURIEL WILKINS: In a way, Denise, it’s interesting because I feel like by not putting yourself out there in the way that we just described it, you are reinforcing the sense of being on the outside.
DENISE: Yeah. I think those pesky assumptions come into play when you’re in the dark.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. When we’re in the dark, we can’t even really see if we’re in the inside or the outside. Can’t we?
DENISE: Just trying to feel for the door. Where’s the door?
MURIEL WILKINS: That’s right. Feel for the door. Feel for the door. Exactly. Exactly. So I know that your original question was, what do I do in order to position myself? How do I thrive as an outsider where being an insider is more valued? I think there’s some data that you need to even be able to make that determination. But in the process of getting that data, you’re setting the path to be able to make choices in terms of how you thrive. I’m curious whether approaching it from the perspective of insider and outsider, in what way does that help you in terms of what you’re trying to achieve?
DENISE: No. It feels very divisive. I don’t think it’s helpful, and I think I’ve bristled to that type of labeling when hearing it in a workplace environment.
MURIEL WILKINS: And in no way am I suggesting that there is not an insider outsider culture. I don’t want to ignore that that’s what you’re experiencing. All I’m asking is does that question help you get to what you’re trying to achieve? And if the answer is, I don’t know, I bristle at it, I’m not quite sure, then the question becomes, okay, in what other way could I frame this to help me get to what I want, which is to understand what it would take for me to be formally recognized in this role? So in what way could you reframe the question for yourself in a way that actually helps you move towards the goal that you want?
DENISE: How can I lead forward with purpose and with those relationships of trust and collaboration, how can I build on my skill set to be a better leader I guess?
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. How did that question feel for you relative to your concern around coming off as politically angling for a higher role?
DENISE: I think it’s more reflective and focused on what more proactive, what I can do. How I can grow and develop on my own skill sets of within the realm of my control. How I can add value and push forward and focus on the work and the team. Not so much on the labels.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. And so your manager is somebody that you could have that conversation with. Are there other roles within the organization … And I’m asking this specifically because it’s an organization that’s deep in terms of relationships and connections. Are there others within the organization that you think … And you don’t have to name them. But that you think it would be worthy to be able to get that type of feedback and have that type of conversation with?
DENISE: Yeah. And I’ve definitely had that type of conversation with another mentor that I’ve developed in the organization that does have a lot of tenure. So I’ve been able to be open about where I am seeing myself and where I’d like to see myself in the future. I don’t know where to go from here.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. The question is are you getting the answers that you like?
DENISE: Yeah. I think it’s similar to the patience and focus on the work and building upon your own skills and taking an honest look about what some things are to develop on. I think they’ve all been within that realm. And I’ve also heard some different perceptions that I’ve brought up to my mentor who does have a lot of tenure here. That feeling of feeling like an outsider to an insider environment. And she actually said that was interesting because as somebody who has been there for a long time, her perception was that a lot of times there is almost the opposite of feeling undervalued being there for a long time versus some new hotshot coming in wanting to shake things up. That there’s often a perception of looking to the outside for a magic solution of this person will come in and solve all the problems. So that was definitely broadened my understanding and perception of what the other side might look like.
MURIEL WILKINS: That’s so interesting to me because in both cases it is defining your value relative to the other. You are defining your value or measuring your value in comparison to those who have been there for a longer period of time. This individual that you spoke to is measuring it relative to the people who are coming in. That’s fine but that’s always going to be a moving target. And so my question for you is how do you measure your own value? What is it based on? How do you ground it in something concrete? Which is why I think these conversations around, well, let me understand if the opportunity did show up, what are the things that would be needed? And then let me take an honest look at myself to say, do I have them? Do I not? And if I don’t, then do I want to do something about them? And how? In the same way that you have done when you join this organization to say, “Oh, I’m great at technical skills, but I see now I need to be able to build the collaboration and the trust, et cetera, so I’m going to build that muscle and I’m going to use it a lot more.” Same thing. You made that assessment. My sense is it’s probably time for another baseline assessment.
DENISE: Yeah. And I think being on the other side of some of these growth opportunities and projects that went really well from feedback and were successful … I think taking stock of, okay, that definitely was a stretch and definitely built on some skillsets that were some muscles that were underdeveloped and how can I incorporate that learning back into the work and like you said, how I see that value of what I bring.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yep. So I think we’ve talked about some tactical things that you can do. I want to make sure that we’re also paying attention to the cultural aspects of this organization, which is you have joined an organization that has a certain culture as do all organizations. And this one, as you named it … You named it as being insular. That there are deep-rooted relationships based on tenure and how long people have been around. So you’re able to name it and see it for what it is. And there’s a question for me around to what extent are you okay with working in that type of culture?
DENISE: It’s one of the things that makes the organization really unique that people want to stick around for a long time. And that’s rare. There’s a lot of institutional knowledge in that and there’s a lot of close relationships that have been formed and that you see that community aspect of where you work. One of the things that drew me to this role in this company, so I think I definitely want to be here and to work towards that shared purpose that’s there and maybe evolve the culture a little bit.
MURIEL WILKINS: And maybe evolve the culture a little bit. And so one of the things that may be helpful is to ask yourself, how do I leverage the strengths of this culture to help me accomplish my goals? And you just named what the things are that you appreciate about it, what the strengths are. So when I frame the question that way, what is your first reaction to it? How do you think you could leverage the strengths of it to support you on your path?
DENISE: Asking for feedback and advice and learning from those who’ve come before me in the organization. I think trying to understand as much of that. Being in that listening and understanding sponge mode to pick up the lessons. I think an element of that is being patient too, of not being in a executive leadership role at the moment where if I wanted to make broad sweeping changes, I’m certainly not in a position right now to do that .but maybe just taking in as much as I can learn from the people who are still here to help direct what decisions I might have to make in the future.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. And what’s interesting, Denise, is people think that when they are in that executive role, they can make those broad sweeping changes all of a sudden and that is not the case. They try, but especially in a culture like that, it backfires. So potentially this is practice ground for when you are in that role. When that time comes.
DENISE: I’d like to think that you have limited capital for making change so being very specific and targeted and focused with that capital of how to use it.
MURIEL WILKINS: Right. And particularly again in an organization where it sounds like social capital is very valued, one of the ways that you could be spending the time that you have now is building that social capital. And so when we talk about leveraging the strengths of the organization, which is the relational aspects, the deep institutional knowledge, when we talk about there’s change happening or things that are going to be happening, but we need to wait for some of this movement to happen, there’s no way you can accelerate it. What can you be doing in the meantime? Build your own social capital. Which it sounds like you’ve been doing. So it’s more around, do more of it. I wish I could tell you here’s the one, two, three in terms formalizing the value that you bring, but there’s so much more at play outside of what’s in your control right now. That said, I think there are some things that you can do. Okay. So I’d love to hear from you how you feel now at the end of our conversation versus how you felt when we first started.
DENISE: When we first started, I felt a little more in the dark of the path forward and assumptions maybe were coloring some of that a lot more. So naming what the assumptions are helped give light to what is an interpretation and what is the data behind my perception of where I’m at. Breaking it apart and giving light to all of those things, I do think that honest look of another baseline assessment and conversation with my manager and other mentors that I have in the organization would help give more light to what is that path forward. It feels like when you’re going down a trail and you’re like, “Wait a second. Is this the right trail? I can’t see the path forward.” So it’s like taking that moment to stop and look at the clues around you of what can you see? What are those trail markers? What does that map? Where am I? What can I perceive? And all that just is data that gives more light to what that path forward is. So I definitely feel better about having those conversations, but then also being patients. To understand that maybe just because I’m ready to take on some more leadership responsibilities, that those things aren’t necessarily ready for me to take them on.
MURIEL WILKINS: That’s right. That’s right. The two have to be aligned. And while clarity in the path is necessary, sometimes all that’s necessary to be able to take one step forward on that path is clarity on what that next step is without seeing the whole way. Okay. And I think you have a little bit more clarity, as you said than you did at the outset, and now take the next step. What’s the next step of getting more clarity? Okay. Thank you.
DENISE: Thank you.
MURIEL WILKINS: Organizational cultures will have an impact on your career and your leadership, and they can be an uphill battle to fight or change. But if you decide to wait it out to see if those changes come to fruition, it can be helpful to focus on setting a clear goal, communicating that goal with your leadership and working on the skill building and relationship building that you need to reach that goal. These are all hopeful ways to focus your energy while at the same time paying attention to whether there is movement on the organizational side of things. While we all love a clear list of actions coming out of a coaching session, a reframing of the problem statement or perspective is just as impactful and necessary to move to meaningful action. Such was the case for Denise as she went from seeing the organizational culture as an obstacle to a possible opportunity. By making a commitment to have more exploratory conversations with leadership and spending the time to build more social capital she’s leveraging the strengths of the culture versus fighting against it.
That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. If you’d like to join my community for exclusive live discussions, apply to be on the show, or sign up for email updates, head over to murielwilkins.com. You can also pre-order my new book Leadership Unblocked wherever you get your favorite books. You can follow me on LinkedIn at Muriel Wilkins, and Instagram at @coachmurielwilkins. Before you go though, I have a really important ask of you. If you love the coaching conversations on Coaching Real Leaders, it would mean the world to me. If you could go to Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to, subscribe to the show and leave a five-star review. And of course, if you think others would learn from these episodes, please share it with them. Thanks to my producer, Mary Dooe; sound editor, Nick Crinko; music composer, Brian Campbell; my director of operations, Emily Sofa; and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners who share in their journeys. From HBR Podcast Network, I’m Muriel Wilkins. Until next time, be well.